[forzaferrari]

Wonder what this Honda pull out means for Moto gp team......shit could go really bad.

They could pull the plug on the Repsol team.

.....Or same as the last 2 times they upped and left.....just more dosh coming across from HMC to HRC....If I remember rightly both times they walked away from f1, HRC got extra money & went on a spending rampage with Doohan & Stoner. 

Latest gossip has Red Bull sponsorship in place of Repsol on the 2021 RCV213

I dont think there will be any negative knock-on effect with mgp plus Honda out sold all other manufacturers, selling over 20 million bikes last year.

[NeilP]

It does not seem to be talked about much at all but Renaults engine does seem to have made some substantial progress. It is more reliable and clearly has some decent top end speed, certainly since Red Bull left their supply chain.

I think Renault will be happy to supply Red Bull. I also think it would be a wise business decision to remove Abiteboul from discussions and let someone else deal with it.

If Red Bull were to leave the sport it would probably be the end of F1 as we know it, same for Mercedes or Ferrari. I would not be shocked to hear Horner and Marko demand from LM a supply of engines from either Mercedes or Ferrari (They will I am sure have got their act together by 2022).

I am with Morini I absolutely hate Marko. I have tried to like Horner but he is too much of a whingebag when not having technological advantages. In my day it called being a sore loser. Red Bull have a lot of money maybe its time to build their own engine. They have looked at it before but maybe they realize its not as easy and cheap to do so. Its not easy to get to Mercedes and Ferrari levels ( No jokes about Fiat 500cc engines please) That is another reason they should just shut up bitching about engine performance.

I hope I am wrong but I have a really bad feeling about F1 and where its going. I am also sick and tired of hearing about the word 'Relevant'. Why does F1 have to be relevant to modern day cars. I understand the future of ICE is limited but I mean will still race Horses and I am damn sure we are not going to be riding them to work anytime soon. We still race greyhounds but they are way to small to saddle up and pop to Tesco's. Its a small section of sport and in World terms its nothing to the environment.

The Neil side of my brain apart from the rest of it (small as it is) says okay, we have to change and I think there exists an opportunity to do just that. F1 is about technology and speed. Why not go backwards to a more simple engine like the V8. That would open the doors to so many engine manufacturers its unreal. Costs would be good. You could afford to do away with stupid rules like 3 engines for a season. Let people play with fuel to a degree. Open up the tyre supply to anyone who wants to supply. Stop making the races all about fuel and tyre management and let them, you know race.

The single engine supply being talked about will totally kill F1 as it is forever. Joking aside can anyone see Ferrari driving a car with anything but a Ferrari engine in it? Same can be said for Mercedes. Yes you may get a lot more teams enter the sport ( The 200 Million is still a barrier) and the racing maybe closer but like I have said before is that really F1. Not in my eyes.

If I was an LM investor I would be well beyond the "concerned' stage with my investment I would be petrified. There is a lot of money at risk here and one wrong move could be the end of it all. Its a time for a collective heads of all concerned to come up with a plan that will work for all.

[Beano]

It does not seem to be talked about much at all but Renaults engine does seem to have made some substantial progress. It is more reliable and clearly has some decent top end speed, certainly since Red Bull left their supply chain.

I think Renault will be happy to supply Red Bull. I also think it would be a wise business decision to remove Abiteboul from discussions and let someone else deal with it.

If Red Bull were to leave the sport it would probably be the end of F1 as we know it, same for Mercedes or Ferrari.  I would not be shocked to hear Horner and Marko demand from LM a supply of engines from either Mercedes or Ferrari (They will I am sure have got their act together by 2022).

I am with Morini I absolutely hate Marko. I have tried to like Horner but he is too much of a whingebag when not having technological advantages.  In my day it called being a sore loser.  Red Bull have a lot of money maybe its time to build their own engine. They have looked at it before but maybe they realize its not as easy and cheap to do so. Its not easy to get to Mercedes and Ferrari levels ( No jokes about Fiat 500cc engines please)  That is another reason they should just shut up bitching about engine performance.

I hope I am wrong but I have a really bad feeling about F1 and where its going.  I am also sick and tired of hearing about the word 'Relevant'.  Why does F1 have to be relevant to modern day cars.  I understand the future of ICE is limited but I mean will still race Horses and I am damn sure we are not going to be riding them to work anytime soon.  We still race greyhounds but they are way to small to saddle up and pop to Tesco's.  Its a small section of sport and in World terms its nothing to the environment.

The Neil side of my brain apart from the rest of it (small as it is) says okay, we have to change and I think there exists an opportunity to do just that. F1 is about technology and speed.  Why not go backwards to a more simple engine like the V8.  That would open the doors to so many engine manufacturers its unreal. Costs would be good. You could afford to do away with stupid rules like 3 engines for a season.  Let people play with fuel to a degree.  Open up the tyre supply to anyone who wants to supply. Stop making the races all about fuel and tyre management and let them, you know race.

The single engine supply being talked about will totally kill F1 as it is forever.  Joking aside can anyone see Ferrari driving a car with anything but a Ferrari engine in it?  Same can be said for Mercedes.  Yes you may get a lot more teams enter the sport ( The 200 Million is still a barrier) and the racing maybe closer but like I have said before is that really F1.  Not in my eyes.

If I was an LM investor I would be well beyond the "concerned' stage with my investment I would be petrified.  There is a lot of money at risk here and one wrong move could be the end of it all. Its a time for a collective heads of all concerned to come up with a plan that will work for all.

Hi Neil, I can see there you’ve again thought long and hard and most of this I agree wholeheartedly, the one bit that I don’t believe will work and it grates me because I like you want the best for F1 but going “back” is not what F1 encapsulates, to be the pinnacle they must go forward I guess. 

All is not lost Neil, Renault will power them I’m sure although RBR are clearly going to have to eat some humble pie on that front I also agree on the part about Cyril he runs a team he is not the supplier so best to keep that apart as you said.

If the cost cap does work maybe more teams will come in, I’d like to see Ford Cosworth continue supplying but I’m not sure they actually develop these types of PUs so maybe Toyota or VW group but I’m not so sure because VW have never expressed a real interest plus reading that you tube it’s the cost/return factor that is off putting. Honda leaving isn’t a be all end all as they’ve done it before as have Mercedes (as a team) I guess suppliers are the key here. 

I am particularly interested in the last pit of the video and I wonder how MV will approach this development although they knew in August apparently. Will Mercedes be interested? Will this impact on Lewis Hamilton’s contractual demands? I can only imagine Toto will have a headache if Mercedes view an opportunity to get Max (if that is the case) it’s not like we see people get dropped instantly look at Mansell and Hill as reference? I would imagine if anyone is worried it would be VB bit, he is a cheap option. Of course it’s all speculation that has been touted and I bet SSF1 will be doing the same.

Worrying but exciting at the same time also, me thinks

[morini]

It does not seem to be talked about much at all but Renaults engine does seem to have made some substantial progress. It is more reliable and clearly has some decent top end speed, certainly since Red Bull left their supply chain.

This far into a regulation phase you would hope so. The PU performance should have levelled out by now between all suppliers but the circumstances in 2017/18 spurred Mercedes to go the extra mile in developing their solution to an exceptional level.

I think Renault will be happy to supply Red Bull. I also think it would be a wise business decision to remove Abiteboul from discussions and let someone else deal with it.

Well, yes. The rules say they have to.

If Red Bull were to leave the sport it would probably be the end of F1 as we know it, same for Mercedes or Ferrari.

Not sure about this one Neil. Red Bull as a F1 competitor are still relative journeymen (albeit successful). The core team personnel are the value in the team and if Dietrich Mateschitz decided to pull out he would sell the team as a going concern. Somebody would buy it, in the same way Ford / Jaguar bought the team from Jackie Stewart and then subsequently sold it to Red Bull.

I would not be shocked to hear Horner and Marko demand from LM a supply of engines from either Mercedes or Ferrari (They will I am sure have got their act together by 2022).

Both teams have several customers. Not obliged to supply Red Bull and neither would want to. Don't see it happening.

I am with Morini I absolutely hate Marko. I have tried to like Horner but he is too much of a whingebag when not having technological advantages.  In my day it called being a sore loser.  Red Bull have a lot of money maybe its time to build their own engine. They have looked at it before but maybe they realize its not as easy and cheap to do so. Its not easy to get to Mercedes and Ferrari levels ( No jokes about Fiat 500cc engines please)  That is another reason they should just shut up bitching about engine performance.

Glad we agree on the RBR management! If the RBR team get sold off I think Horner and Marko will be history. It won't do that team any harm to have different management at the helm.

Building engines is pretty expensive and specialised. Non car manufacturing companies (i.e full "factory teams") don't tend to do it themselves. Ron Dennis was right IMO, you are either the only team representing an engine manufacturer (like McLaren were with Mercedes in the early 2000's) being essentially a "factory team" or you are a full "factory team". Nobody else, i.e. engine customer teams is going to win a WC these days.

I hope I am wrong but I have a really bad feeling about F1 and where its going.  I am also sick and tired of hearing about the word 'Relevant'.  Why does F1 have to be relevant to modern day cars.  I understand the future of ICE is limited but I mean will still race Horses and I am damn sure we are not going to be riding them to work anytime soon.  We still race greyhounds but they are way to small to saddle up and pop to Tesco's.  Its a small section of sport and in World terms its nothing to the environment.

Well, the technology developed in F1 is "relevant" to car manufacturers as a lot of it does end up (in some shape or form) in road cars. The ICE is on its way out so it isn't surprising the big car manufacturers are very interested in electric racing series to help develop future road cars.

The Neil side of my brain apart from the rest of it (small as it is) says okay, we have to change and I think there exists an opportunity to do just that. F1 is about technology and speed.  Why not go backwards to a more simple engine like the V8.  That would open the doors to so many engine manufacturers its unreal.

But the car manufacturers would get no benefits out of doing this. Great for us, not so great for them and there would be no push to develop those engines either.

Stop making the races all about fuel and tyre management and let them, you know race.

Well, yes. That would be nice. Tyres are one thing that could be improved regardless of other influences. Christ knows why the tyre situation has gone the way it has. I'd still rather all drivers have the same tyres available though. I have no desire to see multiple tyre manufacturers again, just provide (the same) rubber the drivers can hammer all the way through a race.

The single engine supply being talked about will totally kill F1 as it is forever.  Joking aside can anyone see Ferrari driving a car with anything but a Ferrari engine in it?  Same can be said for Mercedes.  Yes you may get a lot more teams enter the sport ( The 200 Million is still a barrier) and the racing maybe closer but like I have said before is that really F1.  Not in my eyes.

Going towards a spec series. Not want I want to see, others probably have differing views.

If I was an LM investor I would be well beyond the "concerned' stage with my investment I would be petrified.  There is a lot of money at risk here and one wrong move could be the end of it all. Its a time for a collective heads of all concerned to come up with a plan that will work for all.

This is the internet age. Making money isn't just about charging gate fees, putting paywalls up and charging viewing service subscriptions. These days internet traffic alone is "monetisation". As can be seen by the social media revolution, we (us), all of us are the product. The content comes free as the lure in. When is F1 going to learn this?

[The Professor]

I wonder how MV will approach this development although they knew in August apparently. Will Mercedes be interested? Will this impact on Lewis Hamilton’s contractual demands?

Lol. Someone's been reading way too much in the pf1 insanity section.

Mercedes and Lewis Hamilton have worked together for 25 + years. The guy is a marketing dream and has a massive presence in todays digital world. Are you seriously suggesting Mercedes would drop their acknowledged brand ambassador for shreks uglier younger brother?

Maybe when Lewis walks away from the sport Max might get to drive a Mercedes. Until then they know which side their bread is buttered.

The orange army is vocal but quite a small market compared to the enormous global reach Mr Hamilton has. Don't see that replacement working really. Commercially or otherwise.

[Beano]

I wonder how MV will approach this development although they knew in August apparently. Will Mercedes be interested? Will this impact on Lewis Hamilton’s contractual demands?

Lol. Someone's been reading way too much in the pf1 insanity section.

Mercedes and Lewis Hamilton have worked together for 25 + years. The guy is a marketing dream and has a massive presence in todays digital world. Are you seriously suggesting Mercedes would drop their acknowledged brand ambassador for shreks uglier younger brother?

Maybe when Lewis walks away from the sport Max might get to drive a Mercedes. Until then they know which side their bread is buttered.

The orange army is vocal but quite a small market compared to the enormous global reach Mr Hamilton has. Don't see that replacement working really. Commercially or otherwise.

 Was it in the article? Yes, hence the question? if you read, I said it’s a way out scenario as did the video. None of us know what is happening in their contract talks but I would suggest Mercedes hold the cards in negotiations and with that Honda news I would say they have a strong set of cards to negotiate with,  Does MV have a clause written into his contract I bet he does. 

 My opinion is Mercedes will give Lewis his 7th and 8th title then see where MV is next, he is the next big thing in F1 of that there is no doubt.

I guess it all depends on Mercedes staying after 2022 though i am not sure they will if, they deliver over the next two years it’s not like they will have anything to prove whatsoever, will probably see them as a supplier rather than a team.  

Sorry I don’t read PF1 so wouldn’t know, I see articles posted by people in to here on occasion.

[The Professor]

Was it in the article? Yes, hence the question? 

Had to go back a page or so to twig which article (or rather random YouTube video) you refer to. Didn't see it first time round as I was responding to a later post and didn't notice your link, but have watched some of it just now. I recognised the blokes voice straight away, seem to remember you posted a link from that "the race" site fairly recently when we were all discussing the "reverse grid" sad idea. Same chap, same monotone voice, same unsubsantiated ramblings. Probably why I can't take that particular journo or website too seriously.

If he ever has something factual to say I'd possibly be interested in listening. As it stands all we've got is some random nobody on the internet pointlessly speculating that Mercedes might ditch a proven winning machine for a disillusioned F1 driver not happy with his engine situation. Not really worth debating is it? Don't buy it and can't really see it happening myself.

Would prefer to read and debate factual reporting rather than speculation. YMMV.

I do see Lewis Hamilton retiring from F1 in a few years and becoming a Mercedes ambassador much like the great Sir Stirling Moss did. It would be fully deserved if it works out like that. At that point the youngster may get his chance but the Mercedes cycle will probably be over by then.

Anyway, I digress. The thread is about Honda leaving and here I am scoffing at the idea Max Verstappen will take Lewis Hamilton seat at Mercedes. Tangential or what?

[Beano]

Would prefer to read and debate factual reporting rather than speculation. YMMV.

I think you might want to readdress this statement?

https://the-race.com/

Pretty certain Mark Hughes isn’t random in terms of F1. Nobody is the be all and end all when it comes to journalism but I’d certainly say this is more reputable that PlanetF1.  

It was quite relevant as it’s about Honda leaving F1 which is the title of this thread and the repercussions to both the team and drivers.

[The Professor]

Would prefer to read and debate factual reporting rather than speculation. YMMV.

I think you might want to readdress this statement?

https://the-race.com/

No, I don't, not really. Mark Hughes is an ok motorsport journo but no different to all the others when it comes to reporting things that aren't fact. If he is behind the video I part watched last night then my previous comments still stand. The video is speculation and not particularly well thought through, so all I was doing was giving my reasons I think it is unlikely. I stand behind what I said last night, Lewis Hamilton is a far better bet for Mercedes and we won't see Verstappen in that team until the former retires.

That's what I believe anyway. In fact I would go are far as speculating that Max will end up at Ferrari before Mercedes.

[NeilP]

"But the car manufacturers would get no benefits out of doing this. Great for us, not so great for them and there would be no push to develop those engines either."

But herein lies the problem Morini, we are led to believe the ICE is on its deathbed. Racing already has an Electric race option so where does F1 go from here. I mean they could go solar I suppose but that would mean the Singapore race taking a week to finish. I understand that may well mean Car manufacturers like Mercedes may want to remove themselves but the shear publicity and kudos for being in F1 yet alone being the best is still there.

My point remains and is actually very simple change or die. Electric is being done what else is there?