[morini]

You're going to have to learn how to quote Neil

[Purple-banana]

As regards Bottas.... ???? He was penalized John.

Exactly my point, because he was at fault!

I honestly can't believe this is even a debate. For years now we have complained about inconsistent stewarding & decisions, yet here we have Merc fans claiming that the car that got hit from behind was somehow mainly at fault, following two consecutive events where in similar circumstances the car doing the hitting was (rightly) penalised.

Interesting that when it's been a silver car getting hit by a red car from behind the penalties are unanimously accepted as fair (Baku '17, France '18, GB '18 off the top of my head), now for first time recently that it's been the other way around and it's being doubted and argued over.

---

This just backs up my theory that Mercedes (and fans) have been so far out front and unchallenged for so long that they have grown blinkers to race-craft, strategy and penalties and cannot adjust to needing to get your elbows out and accepting of the risks that come with it.

Welcome to the real world

[morini]

Now now. No need for that.

All I said was Vettel should have left space and he was bloody lucky not to be taken out. He has shown that his risk assessment capabilities can be questionable. This is just another example for me. The move was done, he took a risk by slamming the door and got away with it. End of story.

Don't go off on rants because I don't agree with your interpretation on this one.

I said nothing about the DR issue, that one was VB fault.

[LotusLover]

I honestly thought VB was at fault for both, he had been beaten not sure why SV should leave him room up the inside once he has passed him? You can clearly see Bottas lost the corner, and braked too late for my liking. Bottas then went in to GP3 mode and was overly determined to make up for those overspent tyres.

[Purple-banana]

It's hardly a rant, it's an observation.

I don't recall anyone discussing whether Bottas or Hamilton shoulder any of the blame after their respective French & GB collisions, both of which occurred after they "took a risk by slamming the door".

The only difference here is the running order.

[Jody Barton]

Edit : If you read the top rated comments they all question Palmers article.

I think that speaks more of the demographic of users visiting & commenting on the BBC F1 website than any fair assessment of the incident.

Factually Palmer is spot on;

• Vettel was ahead
  
• Bottas' tyres were old. Very old.
  
• Bottas was off-line, even partially off track
  
• Bottas was locked up.
  

Vettel was driving the car, so of course he is partly responsible, but apportioning him blame is like blaming the victim of a car-jacking for buying a car in the first place.

Let's re-cap:
Azerbaijan GP - Ricciardo locks up and hits Verstappen from behind - no penalty, but Ricciardo widely accepted as at fault
French GP - Vettel locks up and hits Bottas from behind - Vettel penalised
British GP - Raikonnen locks up and hits Hamilton from behind - Raikonnen penalised
Hungarian GP - Bottas locks up and hits Vettel from behind...........?

OK, wasn't going to enter into this debate until your last comment there JB. I think it's fairly well established I'm no fan of Lewis Hamilton's, I admired his skills and talents, just not so much his hair styles, dress sense and personality. Nor am I a fan of Mercedes. I've on numerous occasions opined their dominance, I've also this season and for much of last rooted for Ferrari and Seb. Sooooo... take that into consideration when I say what I'm about to, because I've just read the racing regulations and rewatched all of the incidents you have brought up to back up your argument... unfortunately they undo your argument.

Firstly: For the record Bottas was NOT penalised for the contact with Vettel, which was the right decision as far as I am concerned under the sporting regulations for a number of reasons.
Secondly: The driver in front must ensure on turn in that they leave enough room for competitors to safely make the corner if any part of their car is alongside theirs on turn in. Well... on turn in Bottas' front wheel was actually slightly passed Vettel's rear wheel, see it From Kimi's car Sebs car and the head on and rear shots. Before turn in Bottas had a proportion of his car alongside Vettel. A point by the way Vettel has conceded. So at this point you could argue Vettel deserved a penalty. 
Thirdly: However, the sporting regulations say that any driver attempting to make an overtake must ensure that they do so in a safe fashion and a way that would ensure they are not endangering another competitor, and if a collision looks imminent that avoiding action should be attempted. So, here's my view of it, Bottas was attempting a dangerous move and should have got out of it regardless of whether Seb should have given him space. He did however attempt avoiding action bay crossing the drainage at the side of the track and going onto the grass. Both could be held at fault, and as such both could have been penalised for their infringements. However, as such it was a 50/50 racing incident, no penalty warranted.

So lets look at those racing incident examples...

Azerbaijan GP - Ricciardo locks up and hits Verstappen from behind - no penalty, but Ricciardo widely accepted as at fault

Erm... wrong!!! Ricciardo was not widely accepted as being at fault. In fact even in the Dutch press they laid most of the blame at Max's fault. Why? Because he broke two racing rules 1) He moved in the breaking zone, which he always does, and which is illegall and 2) he made two defensive moves which is also illegal because it's highly dangerous and could cause the car following a serious loss of down force and control of their car... which is what happened. So not going to accept your revisionist history, especially as I've just dug out a few articles from that race and checked that yes, the vast majority of people, including from reading between the lines Red Bulls top brass lay the blame at Max's feet. For further context Max had pulled 5 previous illegal moves defending against Danny that race. But hey, no penalty was given to either driver, so guess what, consistent with Bottas getting no penalty as well. Although I personally think the stewards left the penalties up to RB to dish out as it caused a double retirement.

French GP - Vettel locks up and hits Bottas from behind - Vettel penalised

Yep, he was penalised, and if you read the stewards review you'd know why. He was taking an uneccessary risk and attempting a racing line into turn 1 that was likely to end in a collision and took no avoiding action. Unlike the Hungarian incident the whole of Bottas' car was in front of Seb and crucially, unlike Seb in Hungary, leaving him room. So the incidents are actually very different. and not at all similar, but actually guess what, shows consistency because Bottas' incident in the Hungarian GP with Ricciardo WAS penalised for the exact same reasons Vettel was in France.

British GP - Raikonnen locks up and hits Hamilton from behind - Raikonnen penalised

See above comments about Vettel in France and just substitute the name Vettel for Raikkonen. Except whereas both Kimi and Bottas got 10 second penalties, Seb only recieved a 5 second penalty. Soooo, yeah, perhaps the stewards let Seb off far too lightly? 

I am pretty sick and tired of blinkered people accusing others of being blinkered. I will rip any driver a new one if they mess up, and praise any team and driver when they do a good job. If there were any axes I have to grind it would probably be for McLaren and Kimi, both of whom I've followed for a damn long time, and both of whom I could be safely assumed to be a fan of. Of the current crop of drivers I don't really "support" any of them. They all have merits and things to recommend them (Moanjean and Lame Stroll aside) and things that irk me. I like watching them do their business on the track, sometimes they screw up, and sometimes they're a little naughty, that's it, I've called out every driver on this grid when they've done either. There is no blinkered view of Bottas and Vettel's coming together, unless you're an individual who thinks one or the other should have been penalised. Both were adjudged to be partially culpable, and therefore no further action warranted.

[forzaferrari]

While we're at it, I read Joyless Palmoff's article on the BBC this morning and found myself in complete agreement with him (JV last week, Palmer this - what the hell is wrong with me!?)

I purposely avoid the bbc site .....all you get is that twat Benson milking himself over every Hamilton move.....not sure he knows there are 19 other drivers out there ( I know it a bit rich calling Strollalong a driver, but....

[morini]

Apples and oranges. At Silverstone LH left Kimi room but still got taken out. 100 percent Kimis fault, stewards agreed. Penalty given. No idea why this is being given as a comparable event?

Bottas / Vettel Hungary, Stewards deem 50:50 racing incident. Vettel *could* have left room, chose not to and got away with it. If he'd been taken out it shouldn't affect the stewards decision as from what I saw he was not completely clear when he turned in.

Massive risk taken, needlessly so in my humble opinion. Made no difference to race outcome but only because Vettel was very lucky. We've all seen punctures with this type of contact.

You say it wasn't a rant, but that is how your post came across to me. I'm allowed to disagree with your view.

[LotusLover]

Vettel was on the racing line and ahead why wouldn't he take the apex? Yep apples and oranges but Bottas didn't need to go in a gap that wasn't there, lost his front wing suffered and lost three places. More importantly he lost DOTD for Morini hahaha, acytually even more importantly lost points in my DT ffs

[Jody Barton]

Vettel was on the racing line and ahead why wouldn't he take the apex? Yep apples and oranges but Bottas didn't need to go in a gap that wasn't there, lost his front wing suffered and lost three places. More importantly he lost DOTD  for Morini hahaha, acytually even more importantly lost points in my DT ffs

Actually both were way off the racing line, but as has been said, Vettel turned in when part of Bottas' car was alongside him, you can argue it shouldn't have been there and he should have given it up, which I have, but he was there, and before turn in, and under the rules he should have left space. That's exactly why no penalty was given. Neither were totally at fault, and neither were 100% innocent. The Danny Ricciardo Clash was completely different for me, and more akin to seb crashing into Bottas in France and Kimi into Hamilton in Silverstone, all of which received penalties. I really do think the Bottas / Seb clash in Hungary was a racing incident. Stupid on both parties behalf. If you twisted my arm and said give a penalty to one or the other of them? I'd say Bottas, because I feel he shouldn't have left his nose in there as he wasn't ever really likely to win the place back.