Don’t dumb the engines down?
#1

So we’ve had the mandatory support for the current complex hybrids from Ferrari’s chums (Haas and Sauber), we’ve had the obligatory “losing the HGU-H would be a backwards step” from the Honda works team formally know as Baby Red Bull... and now... now we have Force India playing their part for Mercedes:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/133203...f-44716315

That essentially leaves Red Bull grumbling on their own, and Williams officially saying no comment. McLaren won’t wade in I’d warrant until they see how good or bad the Renault engine is. It’s looking more and more like the teams and manufacturers are closing ranks on the heat recovery elements. Thoughts?
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#2

Personally, I'd love to see them allow any engine configuration you want, governed only by an upper power limit. If Merc want to keep developing a 1.6 V6 hybrid turbo then great, if Cosworth want to enter with a cheap and cheerful but competitive V8, then even better!

But I am a realist, and I know it wouldn't happen. In absence of that freedom, I'd rather they stuck with what they have now and continued to develop instead of throwing it all away for a clean slate design.


Purple Banana (a.k.a John or JB  Smile )
"The flowers of victory belong in many vases." - Michael Schumacher
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#3

(22-11-2017, 03:24 PM)Jody Barton Wrote:  So we’ve had the mandatory support for the current complex hybrids from Ferrari’s chums (Haas and Sauber), we’ve had the obligatory “losing the HGU-H would be a backwards step” from the Honda works team formally know as Baby Red Bull... and now... now we have Force India playing their part for Mercedes:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/133203...f-44716315

That essentially leaves Red Bull grumbling on their own, and Williams officially saying no comment. McLaren won’t wade in I’d warrant until they see how good or bad the Renault engine is. It’s looking more and more like the teams and manufacturers are closing ranks on the heat recovery elements. Thoughts?

They all love the H, it's so efficient and clever.  Getting rid of it means basically they have to carry more fuel or go 4x4.  And now there's no bernie to divide them and Toto's phoning everyone every day and it's such a club.  and by 2021 Renault and even Honda will have caught up and it won't seem so difficult any more.

and the last thing they want is new entrants and it looking easy.  i think they'll stonewall and liberty will have to give in.  I reckon they'll end up keeping the H but cutting down on the automation.   As far as i can think they could do a standard controller, like they do the main ECU, and have it so it's all done with the throttle pedal - up to a detent the battery takes charge from the MGU-H until it's full, or past the detent it deploys.

With the noise, maybe they could tune the exhaust length so it resonates?  It's loud enough i think, when you're there, just not very musical.
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#4

I get where they come from to be honest, they all worked extremely hard to get this technology to work, spent a fortune on it and now it can all go down the drain. Pretty big waste of resources. And the only way to actually make a new design cheap(er) is when they go back to V8, they all have the building plans left over from those.
No matter how "simple" they want to make the engine: development of a new ICE will cost a crapload of money anyway.

But: I don't like these engines and never will probably.. From a technical perspective the are marvelous, that is it sadly.
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#5

(22-11-2017, 03:54 PM)Purple-banana Wrote:  Personally, I'd love to see them allow any engine configuration you want, governed only by an upper power limit. If Merc want to keep developing a 1.6 V6 hybrid turbo then great, if Cosworth want to enter with a cheap and cheerful but competitive V8, then even better!

But I am a realist, and I know it wouldn't happen. In absence of that freedom, I'd rather they stuck with what they have now and continued to develop instead of throwing it all away for a clean slate design.

Agree with this.
Would be great to see cars with different engines fight each other. Who's the real F1? Though not realistic.

Another argument for keeping everybody on the same road could be (as weird as it sounds), is to let the Renault and Honda become more competitive with the Mercedes and Ferrari. When they keep changing the rules, you keep the change slim that all four manufactures get together, because it's a slim change that all for will get it optimal straight away. 
By giving them time, the once that are behind get time to catch up (although the frontrunners get time to improve also, but that curve will normally less aloft - is that the right word in English?).

One thing; make them sound better!
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#6

[/quote]
- is that the right word in English?).
[/quote]

you'd have to go to sky to get that jackass, to correct you anti - haha - totally got what you meant - also I put up something for you on all things music bud - enjoy Smile

"I Say, I say . . . . The satisfaction you have in a few minutes when you become champion. It's enough to live forever 
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#7

(22-11-2017, 03:54 PM)Purple-banana Wrote:  Personally, I'd love to see them allow any engine configuration you want, governed only by an upper power limit. If Merc want to keep developing a 1.6 V6 hybrid turbo then great, if Cosworth want to enter with a cheap and cheerful but competitive V8, then even better!

But I am a realist, and I know it wouldn't happen. In absence of that freedom, I'd rather they stuck with what they have now and continued to develop instead of throwing it all away for a clean slate design.

A V8 would need to be turbo charged to get close to the output of todays hybrids. And no doubt if it was pushing those kind of figures it would drink like Ian on a stag night!
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#8

We’ve ironically seen what happens when regulations are relaxed and made more open in WEC LMP1, costs spiralled above those at the cutting edge of F1 to the point that there is now only Toyota in that series and they’re apparently reevaluating it’s worth as a sporting, and R&D endeavour.

These engines if Horner and others are to be believed will next season cost the teams only slightly more than the V8s did in their last season. So I just do not think it’s a cost thing, and the MGU-H’s aren’t the components failing anymore. Soooooo... I just don’t think it’s clever. It’s clear Ferrari have massively closed the gap to Mercedes, and arguably have the better ICE now. Renault actually don’t look too far off either, and if their dyno performance is true, and they’ve not lied or bluffed so far this era, they will be there or thereabouts next season too.

This leaves just Honda playing catch up, and I hate to say it, but I think the increased rake and wing McLaren have been running might account for some of their straight line speed deficit, their acceleration curve places them ahead of Ferrari now up to 100kph, so they’ve made progress, so by 2020 I can see all 4 manufacturers providing competitive engines, so why shake it up? It’ll just increase costs and give one of them the chance to ace it again.

I think bigger batteries, unrestrict the amount of ERS they can generate and deploy during the race, give drivers control over it and let them have waaaaaay more engines and then watch how quickly these things can go. Especially if you give them active suspension and ground effect because then driving in another cars wake can be mitigated much more. There’s not much wrong with F1 right now that can’t be easily sorted.

Apparently Porsche are interested in F1 because of the Heat recovery tech, it’s clear everyone in the motor industry thinks it’s important, including Tesla if their recent press conference is anything to go by, and some manufacturers want a proving ground for this tech, and they want it to be F1.
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#9

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hybri...t-1040337/

FIA president Jean Todt admits that the current Formula 1 engine regulations went "a bit too far" in terms of complexity.
Todt says that F1 has to be a combination of sport and R&D for the manufacturers.
However, he acknowledges that the hybrid V6 rules, which have been in place since 2014, may have focussed too much on the latter direction.
The FIA and F1 have worked together to formulate a revised version of the current engines for 2021, without the complexity of the MGU-H.
"I think we wanted to take as much as we learned from the existing regulations," said Todt. "And to try to make things more simply.
"It's a beautiful piece of art, of technology, but I hear well that it's maybe not what the fans are expecting.
"It's not something that is absolutely needed to have a good championship.
"So I think it's important that we can learn out of it, and propose something which is supposed to be more simple.
"For me motorsport, and I have been saying that every time, is on one side a show, but it is not enough. It has to be also a laboratory.
"A laboratory for the manufacturers, a laboratory for the teams, and a laboratory which can then be profitable on road cars as much as we can. And it is what is happening.
"Saying that, if you think that it has been maybe a bit too far, you must be prepared to go a bit backwards.
"At the end of the day I'm sure that over the years the engine will be even more efficient without MGU-H."
Todt says that the definitive rules are nearly ready, and he hopes that will encourage new suppliers will agree to come into the sport.
"We are progressing quite well on the engine. I mean we are close to respecting the deadline we have to publish the engine regulations for 2021, and I hope that it may create some interest for some new manufacturers.
"There is interest, but between interest and commitment, there's a big difference."

"When a man holds you round the throat, I don't think he has come to apologise" 
Ayrton Senna on Nigel Mansell, SPA 1987.   Angel
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#10

I think it's truly bizarre that the FIA and Liberty Media are looking at getting rid of the MGU-H just as everyone appears on top of it. Including Honda. It's just weird. We'll go into new engine regulations again and one manufacturer will ace them, and we'll be back to square one again with regards to competitiveness. They do this every fricken time. Just give them more power from the batteries. Allow greater fuel flow and just let them get on with it.
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