[forzaferrari]

I dont know Jody, it sounds a little too simple to me....and I am no genius

[Jody Barton]

The rules exploit is simple. We already know at various points in time Renault, Mercedes, Honda and yes, even Ferrari have tried to exploit this part of the rules. However, they all fell foul of some technical regulation. Finding the exploitable loopholes is really quite simple, as Adrian Newry says, it's then coming up with an exploit that 1) Doesn't fall foul of the sporting regulations and 2) that actually provides a performance gain. The loophole is there though. You can see it.

[Purple-banana]

Getting tired of this now (not this thread on the forum, the whole sport-wide conversation)

Mercedes were head and shoulders clear of the rest for several years, no-one batted an eye-lid.
Now Mercedes, Ferrari and RBR are all head & shoulders clear of the rest, no-ones batting an eye-lid.
Ferrari maybe have are a gnat's pube ahead of Merc and it simply must be cheating!? Anyone who buys into this needs to get a grip!

And why all the focus on engine power? I haven't seen any conspiracies to do with aero (granted with the new job I haven't had quite so much time to keep up as I did before...). Given the thorough examinations the FIA have done, and the numerous subsequent all-clears they have given, surely it is about time that we all agreed whatever Ferrari are doing is legal, and it's up to Toto & co. to stop casting aspersions and instead rally the troops - pretty much the same suggestions levied at anyone who moaned that Merc were running away with it between 2014 and 17. (That's right, I said 17!)

I have a theory, totally unfounded but not one I have seen given any bandwidth elsewhere;

There's a fundamental relationship between speed and drag that most are familiar with, however that's only half the story. Any vehicle with wings, be it an F22 fighter jet, or a Red Bull Soap Box Racer experiences two types of aerodynamic drag. There's form or 'Parasitic' drag which we all know well, it is the air resistance caused by the vehicle moving through air. But the wings also produce 'Induced' drag, which is drag created by the air being worked over the wings.

Form drag increases with speed, and as has been pointed out, it's not linear, and why something like the last 500bhp of the 1000bhp Bugatti Veyron is needed for just the last handful of mph approaching top speed. Induced drag works the opposite way and is actually at it’s maximum at the slowest speed that flight can be maintained for an aircraft and decreases with speed.

Ask any pilot and s/he will be able to tell you their aircraft's Vmd without hesitation. It's an incredibly important value to know. Vmd = Minimum Drag Velocity and is the speed a pilot needs to achieve to maximise their glide range (in still air, over level ground blah blah blah). Such as in the event of a engine failure.

Anyway, plot these two elements on a drag vs speed chart and you end up with a U-shape or a Nike tick, where Vmd occurs at the lowest point. Essentially where the two drag curves meet and the total drag is at it’s minimum.

My point, and possible suggestion for the observed performance advantage is that Ferrari have found a way through their aero design to have their Vmd occur at a higher speed and are able to take the pain of more drag (compared to other cars) at lower speed while there is the abundance of engine power available to “break through” into the speed range where they have reduced drag (again, compared to others).

Just a thought I wanted to share.

[Jody Barton]

Purple-Bannana I don't think anyone here is talking about Ferrari cheating. I certainly aren't. On the aero side of things? Who knows, however with the amount of shot of each others cars the big teams get I doubt it is aero. I think it was Allison while still at Enstone that said teams had relatively accurate models of each others cars and ran them in CFD simulations. It is unlikely in my opinion that it is aero. When you here engineers talk about other teams aero additions and what they're doing it no longer sounds like guesswork, but pretty solid scientific reasoning. The reason people think it is to do with the PU is because of where the traces go. I see some are proposing the wing stalling idea, and that does tally with the peaky performance gain they seem to have, but if that is the gain I'll be disappointed because we know that's totally banned for 2019 right? So I don't know, seems odd to me that Ferrari would pursue something that is so difficult to get right (ask Red Bull, Renault and Mercedes) when the advantage will only be for just over half a season.

[NeilP]

I dont think any one here is accusing Ferrari of cheating either. From my short time here nearly all people are fans of the sport. We all have our favourites both teams and drivers and I see very little confrontation between posters. That to be honest is one of the reasons I came here to get away from that negative crap and listen to people who have some knowledge and passion about the sport. I barely venture to the likes of Sky Sports anymore. That said its perfectly fine to have a go at Forza he does not count!

I dont think any of teams are outright accusing Ferrari of cheating either I think they are using the standard lines of communication with the FIA and other teams to try and figure out what on earth Ferrari have done to gain such an advantage. The bottom line here is you praise Ferrari for finding something and you say to the other teams time to do a little circumspection boys we got to figure this out!

Edit: Sorry I missed out Foggy and his Renault team too. They are fair game as well!

[pennywise]

Lot's of talk on this issue....Ferrari MUST be cheating because no-one else can figure it out?  NOPE.....I don't think so.

The extra advantage could be straight power, Aero or extra battery output.....maybe.
I'm no expert...yea , I know some might already know that...and I'll agree with them...but I'll throw my own thoughts of why they are so fast at high end speed......Their gearing.

I think they have found a way to keep maximum torque through every gear.

Thoughts and put downs welcome

[forzaferrari]

 That said its perfectly fine to have a go at Forza he does not count!

Lol, perhaps the next time I am ordering my workwear I should also get them to print a large target across the back for all to aim at 

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Does anyone know what ballpark figure the mgu-H and mgu-k individually put out in any of the cars?

[Jody Barton]

Forza the issue with MGU-K's for many engines is we just don't know. However, with both Mercedes and Ferrari asking for them to be unlimited in the 2021 regulations suggests they're more than capable of outputting more than they are limited too. Ditto MGU-H's which we know Mercedes have blitzed. We have no idea what their ultimate performance might be if unrestricted therefore.

[forzaferrari]

Well, of course we know the output equates to 160 bhp and just thought there might have been a figure bandied around for the charging side of the "K".

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Thoughts and put downs welcome

If your waiting on put downs ya may get to the back of the queue buddy 

[Purple-banana]

Purple-Bannana I don't think anyone here is talking about Ferrari cheating. I certainly aren't. 

I dont think any one here is accusing Ferrari of cheating either. 

Apologies guys, I didn't mean to imply anyone here was saying Ferrari were cheating - rather that the whole sport (media & other teams) are on a witch-hunt to explain Ferrari's surge in form, rather than just accepting they have done a good job, the Mercedes dominance couldn't have lasted forever and that they need to pull their respective fingers out.

My frustration stems from the fact that when Merc were leagues ahead, how often did we say, or were told that "Good on Mercedes finding an advantage, and it's up to the other teams to catch up". Now the puma racing bootie is on the other foot and race after race we hear that Ferrari are hiding something, or exploiting loopholes, or under investigation again.

Sorry if I am coming across as grumpy, as disturbing as it is, I found myself agreeing with Jacques Villeneuve this week and am consequently re-evaluating my life.