[morini]

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/32420/1...s-mistakes

Interesting view again by Mark Hughes

I can partly agree with some of that. But Vettel errors in Germany and Baku had nowt to do with the team. They were driver errors, plain and simple. This is the first time he's been in a fight with an evenly matched car and he is showing a tendency to crack at key moments.

[NeilP]

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/32420/1...s-mistakes

Interesting view again by Mark Hughes

I can partly agree with some of that. But Vettel errors in Germany and Baku had nowt to do with the team. They were driver errors, plain and simple. This is the first time he's been in a fight with an evenly matched car and he is showing a tendency to crack at key moments.

I have no axe to grind here but he is way off point in my view.  If Vettel were so intelligent as to think he needs to "lead the team from the cockpit" he must also realise that in doing so you are not paying enough attention to your own job so that means also you are not smart enough to realise that point. Its an opposed view.

All the errors mentioned are down to him he is driving the car the team had nothing to do with any of them.  Does that mean the team has not made any errors no they are making plenty. Also lets give the team some credit it was their strategy that won Vettel the race in Australia was it not?  Sure a little lady luck was involved but if they had not made him run long that luck would not have counted

BUT.... here is the thing I cannot get my head around. Ferrari are world champions at having a number 1 and number 2 drivers its a major part of their DNA (rightly or wrongly there are many differing views out there). Raikkonen until lately has been a sacrificial lamb all year long yet that situation seems to have changed over the last few races WHY???????

Vettel is a great driver you dont win 4 WDC otherwise but he is prone to making BIG mistakes and plenty of them, he needs to take a long hard look in the mirror (not that he is publicly blaming the team) or rather people need to take a long hard look at him not the team itself.

EDIT: Many people on here have said it and its true, if Hamilton or Alonso were driving that Ferrari the WDC would almost certainly be decided if not mathematically certainly in the world of percentages (Is that oxymoron I created there ? )

[LotusLover]

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/32420/1...s-mistakes

Interesting view again by Mark Hughes

I can partly agree with some of that. But Vettel errors in Germany and Baku had nowt to do with the team. They were driver errors, plain and simple. This is the first time he's been in a fight with an evenly matched car and he is showing a tendency to crack at key moments.

Agreed, although I thought Mark Hughes attributed them errors to Vettel in the post did he not? Then went on to try and explain where Ferrari perhaps should shoulder the blame

[Jody Barton]

LotusLover I didn't say he didn't have a point, I actually said Hughes did, but I don't think you can attribute even the lion's share of the blame to it. The truth is Seb has prior to the last two seasons either been in a car that is not capable of winning championships or one that is in terms of deltas as dominant as any past periods of dominance. The race win stats might not support that argument, but another way of interpreting that is that perhaps Fernando and Lewis getting close enough to worry him 3 out of his 4 WDCs says more about their relative driving abilities, just playing devils advocate here. However, now he finds himself in a situation where is capable of winning WDCs, both this year and last, and it is he who is expected to make the difference. He's never really been in this situation before. As mental as that sounds. This is new territory for him, and he's finding this territory in absolutely the most prestigious marque in all of motorsport, that's a lot of learning and personal growth to go through in the most pressured of environments, and I don't think it suits him at all.

Also my comment about emulating Schumacher wasn't a comment about winning 7 WDCs or indeed copying his style, it was about winning a WDC in red. For the record Seb said that was his motivation for joining Ferrari and has constantly restated that desire on multiple occasions, so I think it has a bearing, and again points to extra external pressure or extra pressure he has heaped upon himself.

You then contrast that approach with Lewis' approach which is to emulate nobody. I used to think this was BS, sure he said he'd love to match Senna's 3 WDCs, but even then it wasn't framed as a goal or a desire, from about 2011 onwards Lewis has spoken about simply being the best he can be, about trying to do better than he did before... at the risk of repeating a point I've made far too often that sounds like Prost. A man who never heaped too much pressure on himself to achieve targets, just be the best he could be.

Seb is obsessed with the history of the sport, and it's records. When he was told he'd bettered Prost's win record and he claimed he hadn't realised I went back to an interview he did while still at Red Bull when he literally said the next thing to tick off his list was to beat Prost's win total. He knew, and he's not fooling me. It's great he has goals and ambition, but at times I feel like he lets these targets and goals get the better of him, because when you clearly have a finite career, and opportunities within that career to achieve these things, mentally that has to play a part in your on track decisions, and Seb's "I have to do it now" attitude.

What I'm trying to say in a very long way, is that Sebs mental attitude is as much to blame as Ferrari's culture and set up. Maybe the two are just a combustible mix that was never going to work, I mean I think it's almost there,aybe one or the other has to adapt more to the other, maybe they can try and meet each other in the middle, I just feel given this is Ferrari and Ferrari do things their way, it is always the driver that has to rise to that challenge and embrace the team. Perhaps that's part of the reason so many Ferrari fans haven't taken to Seb? Maybe instinctively they can see he's not really a "Ferrari" driver. Who knows, but it's certainly a thought provoking discussion and one I'm enjoying mulling over. Don't really think I have the answer either, I just intuitively feel it's not right.

[LotusLover]

LotusLover I didn't say he didn't have a point, I actually said Hughes did, but I don't think you can attribute even the lion's share of the blame to it. The truth is Seb has prior to the last two seasons either been in a car that is not capable of winning championships or one that is in terms of deltas as dominant as any past periods of dominance. The race win stats might not support that argument, but another way of interpreting that is that perhaps Fernando and Lewis getting close enough to worry him 3 out of his 4 WDCs says more about their relative driving abilities, just playing devils advocate here. However, now he finds himself in a situation where is capable of winning WDCs, both this year and last, and it is he who is expected to make the difference. He's never really been in this situation before. As mental as that sounds. This is new territory for him, and he's finding this territory in absolutely the most prestigious marque in all of motorsport, that's a lot of learning and personal growth to go through in the most pressured of environments, and I don't think it suits him at all.

Also my comment about emulating Schumacher wasn't a comment about winning 7 WDCs or indeed copying his style, it was about winning a WDC in red. For the record Seb said that was his motivation for joining Ferrari and has constantly restated that desire on multiple occasions, so I think it has a bearing, and again points to extra external pressure or extra pressure he has heaped upon himself.

You then contrast that approach with Lewis' approach which is to emulate nobody. I used to think this was BS, sure he said he'd love to match Senna's 3 WDCs, but even then it wasn't framed as a goal or a desire, from about 2011 onwards Lewis has spoken about simply being the best he can be, about trying to do better than he did before... at the risk of repeating a point I've made far too often that sounds like Prost. A man who never heaped too much pressure on himself to achieve targets, just be the best he could be.

Seb is obsessed with the history of the sport, and it's records. When he was told he'd bettered Prost's win record and he claimed he hadn't realised I went back to an interview he did while still at Red Bull when he literally said the next thing to tick off his list was to beat Prost's win total. He knew, and he's not fooling me. It's great he has goals and ambition, but at times I feel like he lets these targets and goals get the better of him, because when you clearly have a finite career, and opportunities within that career to achieve these things, mentally that has to play a part in your on track decisions, and Seb's "I have to do it now" attitude.

What I'm trying to say in a very long way, is that Sebs mental attitude is as much to blame as Ferrari's culture and set up. Maybe the two are just a combustible mix that was never going to work, I mean I think it's almost there,aybe one or the other has to adapt more to the other, maybe they can try and meet each other in the middle, I just feel given this is Ferrari and Ferrari do things their way, it is always the driver that has to rise to that challenge and embrace the team. Perhaps that's part of the reason so many Ferrari fans haven't taken to Seb? Maybe instinctively they can see he's not really a "Ferrari" driver. Who knows, but it's certainly a thought provoking discussion and one I'm enjoying mulling over. Don't really think I have the answer either, I just intuitively feel it's not right.

Agreed, it is not a match in heaven really is it? And i did add the combination is definitely in Sebs favour (faults within the season) I am beginning to wonder if he will be there much longer to be honest, someone said a while back Seb to Merc Lewis to Ferrari, maybe its is not as far off as some imagine??

[PapaofGags]

"Seb to Merc Lewis to Ferrari, maybe its is not as far off as some imagine??"
Quote Lotus


As a Lewis fan its my hope that Lewis finishes his career for Ferrari, I would like to see it against Sebastian but my guess is they will swap teams, I'm not convinced he would want to go against Lewis in the same car, my view.

[Jody Barton]

I think if Seb doesn't win the WDC this year for Ferrari the relationship will sour. They have given him the tools. We have to acknowledge that, true, this Ferrari isn't the 2015 Merc, but it is say the equivalent of the 2000 Ferrari that was clearly the best on the grid, but with McLaren and Williams able to fight with them.

If Seb doesn't win, and Leclerc comes in, someone who has literally grown up inside Ferrari, I think there's only one way that relationship will go, and that is rapidly south. The truth is if he doesn't win the WDC this year it'll also harm brand Vettel. The talk in the paddock is that the Ferrari is clearly the best car. Now some can argue the extent of the advantage, but there is an advantage, and for Lewis just taking it to the wire would be a result. Winning it would rubber stamp Lewis as the best of his generation without quibble I think. Whereas there is a feeling in F1 right now that we actually should be expecting Seb to win it.

Whether that is fair or not is moot, it's there. The Italian media expects, and I get the feeling the Ferrari / Fiat top brass also expects. If he doesn't win the WDC rather than getting plaudits for taking it to the wire we'd be talking recriminations for failure,band he'd then have 2 more seasons with Ferrari to redeem himself, with the aforementioned soured relationship.

Again, it seems mental, but I feel this season could be make or break for Seb. Why? B cause if you are Mercedes in 2021 and you've just lost Lewis Hamilton to Ferrari, which is a distinct possibilty, who do you go for? Vettel? Who could be a broken man / spent force? A matured Verstappen? A bursting at the seams to get a chance Ricciardo? Or some of the talented young bucks who might yet prove to be worth a punt like Ocon, Gasly, Norris, Russell etc. In that driver market Seb might not be as attractive as he once was. Especially ifewis has done him multiple times in inferior cars.

You know what? Seb is a super astute guy, and super observant and smart. I actually think he's arguably the most intelligent driver out of the car. He has almost certainly worked all of the above out. He probably worked it all out before I even brushed my teeth this morning. He knows this, perhaps this is the real pressure? He has the talent to win this year's WDC, that isn't in doubt, he certainly has the car, but it seems there is a mental fortitude problem, perhaps he's over thinking everything and letting it get to him. I really felt for him in Germany because I could feel it, but Mercedes and Hamilton will be relentless and ruthless in their pursuit of the championship, and I'm starting to sense Vettel is isolated within Ferrari

[F1 Fan]

I think if Seb doesn't win the WDC this year for Ferrari the relationship will sour. They have given him the tools. We have to acknowledge that, true, this Ferrari isn't the 2015 Merc, but it is say the equivalent of the 2000 Ferrari that was clearly the best on the grid, but with McLaren and Williams able to fight with them.

I believe that you are probably right, Ferrari wont put up with it if Seb doesn't win it this year, I think he has wasted golden opportunities, and I think it will cost him in the end. Having said all of that, if by some miracle, he turns it around from here, I dont think it will matter to Ferrari how he does it, given the drought they have experienced.

I really dont beleive that the Ferrari have a major power advantage or are clearly the best on the grid, I believe that they are just being really clever with deployment and/or some form of traction control. Monza seemed to validate this, given that the Merc were a lot closer than was expected. 

It will be interesting to see how the rest of the season plays out, and I am sure reliability will play its part, but still not sure to who's advantage.

[morini]

some form of traction control.

Ummm..., isn't TC illegal? I mean, it's a very grey area anyway because a limited slip differential is a form of traction control at the end of the day. But I thought electronic TC was banned?

Don't jump down my throat if I'm wrong, I don't study the regs as closely as some

[F1 Fan]

some form of traction control.

Ummm..., isn't TC illegal? I mean, it's a very grey area anyway because a limited slip differential is a form of traction control at the end of the day. But I thought electronic TC was banned?

It is, but there are many ways of skinning a cat, I would guess its around control of the the power going into the battery and how its deployed so technically not traction control, but could deliver similar benefits. Only a guess!